tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post5707401227301579067..comments2023-11-05T04:09:26.194-05:00Comments on e g r e g o r e s: "Two religions will not remain in the land of the Arabs."Apuleius Platonicushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11761230673724504084noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-27171667269167206612010-02-26T18:05:50.349-05:002010-02-26T18:05:50.349-05:00Kayleigh: "I think she believes the warlike p...Kayleigh: "I think she believes the warlike passages refer to the internal struggle between oneself and one's Id or something like that."<br /><br />Ah yes (doing my WC Fields voice) the old "it's all a metaphor" routine.<br /><br />Naturally I think that metaphorical interpretations of sacred texts can be perfectly valid. But they can also be all-too-convenient.<br /><br />Speaking of WC Fields, there's a line in one of his movies where someone finds him off by himself reading the Bible. "I was just looking for loopholes," he explained.Apuleius Platonicushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761230673724504084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-9503745778185343202010-02-26T17:57:32.509-05:002010-02-26T17:57:32.509-05:00I think she believes the warlike passages refer to...I think she believes the warlike passages refer to the internal struggle between oneself and one's Id or something like that.<br /><br />Of course, what many others may not have heard in that is that she still believes Islam is the Truth that people will find when they are truly at the end of their spiritual journey.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-67058497987144767752010-02-25T21:31:38.042-05:002010-02-25T21:31:38.042-05:00Kayleigh: "She condemns the non-pacifists for...Kayleigh: "She condemns the non-pacifists for interpreting Koran improperly....."<br /><br />Interesting. Did she actually identify herself as a pacifist? Pacifist Muslims? Now I really have heard everything!Apuleius Platonicushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761230673724504084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-89894278243516797282010-02-25T20:03:33.795-05:002010-02-25T20:03:33.795-05:00She condemns the non-pacifists for interpreting Ko...She condemns the non-pacifists for interpreting Koran improperly. No, she didn't touch on what had happened with polytheism; I think that, to be a pacifist Muslim, you have to pretend that the forced conversion never really happened.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-49827991920252659102010-02-24T14:50:22.133-05:002010-02-24T14:50:22.133-05:00Sorry Goodfellow, your last comment about not &quo...Sorry Goodfellow, your last comment about not "getting" heathenism has caused me to no longer desire to respond to you.Neorxnawanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02605746614944521619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-34646953256799948502010-02-24T00:23:59.946-05:002010-02-24T00:23:59.946-05:00The pilgrimage to Mecca was co-opted by Islam. Tha...The pilgrimage to Mecca was co-opted by Islam. That was an old polytheist rite/ceremony and the Kaaba was there long before Mohammed lived. <br /><br />The violent verses are there in the Koran for anyone to see. Islam, like Christianity, was spread by the sword. <br /><br />There are Canaanite and Sumerian recons out there (I've met one of each in my internet travels). I Would love to know what polytheist practice on the Saudi pennisula was like before Islam took over.Ellen Catalina, LCSWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05370543572803320295noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-22709772891782477512010-02-23T11:44:35.455-05:002010-02-23T11:44:35.455-05:00I have some relevant excerpts from her work in thi...I have some relevant excerpts from her work in <a href="http://egregores.blogspot.com/2009/11/in-honor-of-freddie-mercury-we-are.html" rel="nofollow">this old post</a>.<br /><br />Those quotes are all from the first volume of her Magnum Opus <a href="http://egregores.blogspot.com/2009/11/in-honor-of-freddie-mercury-we-are.html" rel="nofollow">A History of Zoroastrianism</a>. <br /><br />Also see other links and sources found in that same post.Apuleius Platonicushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761230673724504084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-89332069439272345142010-02-23T11:35:21.250-05:002010-02-23T11:35:21.250-05:00I admit, I have not read anything by Mary Boyce. W...I admit, I have not read anything by Mary Boyce. What would you recommend?Nick Ritternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-34440827782498887032010-02-23T11:00:05.037-05:002010-02-23T11:00:05.037-05:00The idea that Zoroastrianism is "monotheizing...The idea that Zoroastrianism is "monotheizing" turns out to be a rewriting of history, at least according to Mary Boyce, and I think she has made a very good case.Apuleius Platonicushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761230673724504084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-751832361812494492010-02-23T10:49:53.471-05:002010-02-23T10:49:53.471-05:00Siegfried:
A monotheizing, sacrifice-banning refo...Siegfried:<br /><br />A monotheizing, sacrifice-banning reform of a polytheistic religion, which transformed a number of that religion's gods into demons, is "as heathen as you can get?"<br /><br />Also, considering how much you howl when your understanding of heathenry is called into question, perhaps you should be more politic to Neorxnawang about his understanding.Nick Ritternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-31136112683709732522010-02-23T06:17:27.677-05:002010-02-23T06:17:27.677-05:00Neorxnewang,
Not at all. I've studied Zoroas...Neorxnewang, <br /><br />Not at all. I've studied Zoroastrianism very closely, and it's as heathen as you can get. If you don't get that, well, then, you probably don't get heathenism.<br /><br />But that's not surprising to me, because most people don't.SiegfriedGoodfellowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01696170388891436569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-53294869673397542972010-02-20T21:04:44.179-05:002010-02-20T21:04:44.179-05:00Siegfried, it should be very evident that reconstr...Siegfried, it should be very evident that reconstructed Iranian polytheism would be a pretty far cry from Zoroastrianism.Neorxnawanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02605746614944521619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-71230863033374901292010-02-20T19:41:03.081-05:002010-02-20T19:41:03.081-05:00Modern Zoroastrianism has unfortunately been heavi...Modern Zoroastrianism has unfortunately been heavily influenced by Christianity, and as a direct result one often hears the claim, from Zoroastrians themselves, that their religion is "monotheistic".<br /><br />But is only true for the urban, western educated Parsi's of India. Among those few, scattered Zoroastrian holdouts in Persia itself, the Old Gods are still worshipped.<br /><br />If we look at Hinduism, we can speculate that Zoroastrianism could be very different today than it was 14 centuries if it hadn't been for Muhammad and his henchmen. Much has changed, and much has also remained the same, in India, where polytheism has proven to be quite resilient, but far from static.Apuleius Platonicushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761230673724504084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-3341453011640677562010-02-20T19:34:37.654-05:002010-02-20T19:34:37.654-05:00A reconstruction of pre-Zoroastrian polytheism wo...A reconstruction of pre-Zoroastrian polytheism would look very much like the early Indic religion that produced the Vedas. The Indians and Iranians were close enough that their gods, before Zarathustra's reform, had the same names. Zarathustra's reform transformed many of these gods into demons, and replaced them with abstractions. I have heard of some stirrings of Iranians going back to these gods.Nick Ritternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-22454530206477345692010-02-20T12:52:35.003-05:002010-02-20T12:52:35.003-05:00"an Iranian polytheism reconstructionist grou..."an Iranian polytheism reconstructionist group come together..."<br /><br />Ummmm, that's called "Zoroastrianism".SiegfriedGoodfellowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01696170388891436569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-51263275776355451952010-02-19T22:29:06.315-05:002010-02-19T22:29:06.315-05:00A great post. I'm sick of the PC-tip toeing ar...A great post. I'm sick of the PC-tip toeing around this subject. There's nothing admirable Islam, nor is the notion of anyone deserving special accommodation based off of their religion anything but absurd.<br /><br />I think one of the best things that could happen to the region is to bring back pre-Islam polytheism. It would be particularly interesting to see an Iranian polytheism reconstructionist group come together...Neorxnawanghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02605746614944521619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-70796915554887235912010-02-19T13:10:36.675-05:002010-02-19T13:10:36.675-05:00The writings related to Muhammad (the Quran, the H...The writings related to Muhammad (the Quran, the Hadith and the various biographical writings about the life of Muhammad) are the earliest records of Islam, written by the founders of the religion, whoever they were.<br /><br />There is no doubt that a bunch of thugs conquered Arabia and imposed a brutal religious theocracy there (where previously Christians, Jews and polytheists had practiced their religions side-by-side). There is no doubt that they then spread their theocracy to all of North Africa and the Middle East (most of which had already undergone extensive Christianization).<br /><br />If these thugs invented Muhammad out of their diseased imaginations it makes no difference. Certainly they had one or more leaders for their murderous rampage. Whether Muhammad is a composite of these, or a dramatic fictionalization of one "real" leader, or whatever, "he" represents what was in the minds of those who founded the religion.<br /><br />The Quran, Hadith and "biographies" of Muhammad define the core beliefs of Islam. This is so regardless of the historicity of Muhammad.<br /><br />All Muslims are required to accept Muhammad as the last prophet, whose teachings must be followed and cannot be altered or added to. Therefore what is written in the Quran, the Hadith and the biographies <b>IS</b> Islam.Apuleius Platonicushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761230673724504084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-79242152495849775792010-02-19T12:32:08.459-05:002010-02-19T12:32:08.459-05:00You are assuming there was a founder of Islam name...You are assuming there was a founder of Islam named Muhammad, which there may or may not have been. Increasingly some scholars are finding that his existence may be as much in doubt as Jesus'.SiegfriedGoodfellowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01696170388891436569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-66041325749958228722010-02-19T07:54:31.546-05:002010-02-19T07:54:31.546-05:00I think that the actions of Muhammad himself in th...I think that the actions of Muhammad himself in the holiest places of Islam (Medina, Mecca and Arabia) cannot possibly be treated as anything but indicative of the essence of Islam.<br /><br />There is also the fact that Muhammad's actions in expelling all non-Muslims from Arabia stands to this day.<br /><br />The historical record with respect to the "interaction" between Islam and other religions is not in doubt. What these excerpts show is that these "facts on the ground" are themselves solidly grounded in what the founder of Islam said and did.Apuleius Platonicushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761230673724504084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-78357467861140429262010-02-19T03:54:42.771-05:002010-02-19T03:54:42.771-05:00I guess my only concern with this is how represent...I guess my only concern with this is how representative it is, because Islamic commentary and exegesis is as sprawling and multiple as Judaic Talmudic commentary. Thus, it can be easy to pull anything out of context, if one is not careful to relate how the given interpretations relate to the rest of the interpretations, whether it is a majority ruling, etc. We absolutely must be fair in our assessments and critiques.SiegfriedGoodfellowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01696170388891436569noreply@blogger.com