tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post7529758942567105592..comments2023-11-05T04:09:26.194-05:00Comments on e g r e g o r e s: Carl Jung & the Cowardly Blood Sport of Nazi-BaitingApuleius Platonicushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11761230673724504084noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-22635731936400727842011-10-19T12:28:02.226-04:002011-10-19T12:28:02.226-04:00Apuleius Platonicus: "This means that liberal...Apuleius Platonicus: "This means that liberals and leftists who have either supported, or in some sense been apologists for, the Soviet Union are morally no better than rightists who played footsie with the Nazis."<br /><br />Agreed. But the fact that large numbers of academics and intellectuals on the left enthusiastically supported Soviet communism - one of the most murderous regime's the world has ever seen - through to the 1970s and beyond, is hardly ever mentioned. <br /><br />Apuleius Platonicus: "But the fact is that not all rightists played footsie with the Nazis." <br /><br />Or all catholics, protestants, pagans, Theosophists or candlestick makers.<br /><br />Apuleius Platonicus: "Also, the Church did not just oppose Communism. The Church opposed democracy, republicanism, secularism, individual liberty (especially freedom of conscience and freedom of speech), human equality (especially women's equality), and so forth."<br /><br />This is a very vague list of very modern values, broad of sweep but small on details. You could say the same of almost everyone who has ever lived up to about a hundred years ago - but that would be a pointless exercise in self-righteousness and historical anachronism. <br /><br />And surely you can't condemn the catholics for opposing secularism!dimwoohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14647682159670328929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-35953197059693114062011-10-19T11:23:21.309-04:002011-10-19T11:23:21.309-04:00dimwoo: "It was catholicism's great fear ...dimwoo: "It was catholicism's great fear of Communism that led them to embrace right-wingers such as Hitler, Franco etc. This was not an unfounded fear."<br /><br />Sorry I didn't see that comment earlier. I consider that particular point to be valid, as far as it goes. And it goes pretty far. In particular, it raises the issue of the moral equivalence of Nazism and Communism. If anything, the Soviet Regime proved to be worse than the Nazis, and Communism itself is still, sadly, with us, especially in its Maoist mutant version. This means that liberals and leftists who have either supported, or in some sense been apologists for, the Soviet Union are morally no better than rightists who played footsie with the Nazis.<br /><br />But the fact is that not all rightists played footsie with the Nazis. Jung, for example, was always quite conservative in his political social views, but he was never sympathetic to National Socialism or fascism.<br /><br />Also, the Church did not just oppose Communism. The Church opposed democracy, republicanism, secularism, individual liberty (especially freedom of conscience and freedom of speech), human equality (especially women's equality), and so forth.Apuleius Platonicushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761230673724504084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-65940242036024750252011-10-19T10:27:29.688-04:002011-10-19T10:27:29.688-04:00Hi dimwoo,
The culpability of Christianity in the...Hi dimwoo,<br /><br />The culpability of Christianity in the Third Reich has been discussed by me elsewhere in this blog, but I have tried to avoid that as much as possible here, because Jung's case does not primarily rest on this point.<br /><br />The close connection between Christianity and racism is discussed by George M. Fredrickson in his "Race: A Short History" (published in 2003), the first chapter of which is titled "Religion and the Invention of Race." <br /><br />The more specific argument that centuries of Christian anti-Semitism paved the way for the Holocaust is made by Christopher Browning in "The Origins of the Final Solution: The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy", in the opening chapter of that book which is titled "Background".<br /><br />The even more specific issue of the role of Christianity in Nazism and the Third Reich is the subject of Richard Steigmann-Gall's 2003 book "Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity."<br /><br />One can also look directly at the Nazis themselves. Nazi ideology is based on three main books: Houston Stewart Chamberlain's "Foundations of the 19th Century", Alfred Rosenberg's "Myth of the 20th Century", and, of course, Adolf Hitler's "Mein Kampf". All three books are explicit and enthusiastic in their promotion of the Christian religion.Apuleius Platonicushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761230673724504084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-17510753883049861062011-10-19T10:08:50.871-04:002011-10-19T10:08:50.871-04:00"Unlike Jung, though, in the case of the Cath..."Unlike Jung, though, in the case of the Catholic Church it is simply a matter of historical fact that the Catholic Church was (1) supportive of Nazism, (2) anti-Semitic, and (3) that the Church helped to prepare the way for the Third Reich and even the Holocaust. This is not just my own personal opinion, but something that many prominent scholars agree on."<br /><br />Well of course I disagree. And you've not presented any evidence to support this claim in your blog entry. I would argue that the Nazis/Catholic allegation is a perfect example of what you claim Jung's reputation has suffered: the unwarranted and spurious cry of "fascism", as Orwell has described it. I would also argue that the accusations against the catholic church are not historical fact and not supported by legions of eminent scholars, but amount to little more than anti-catholic smears and gossip.dimwoohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14647682159670328929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-87920778938861169522011-10-19T09:22:31.831-04:002011-10-19T09:22:31.831-04:00You completely miss the point, dimwoo. It is not t...You completely miss the point, dimwoo. It is not the case that no one was to blame for Nazism. However, it is the case that Carl Jung was not to blame in any way, while Christianity in general, and the Catholic Church in particular, bear a significant load of guilt. Many Christians, including Catholics, acknowledge this.<br /><br />At the risk of repeating myself: the whole point of investigating the accusations made against Jung is to determine the truth. If there were any actual evidence indicating that Jung was supportive of Nazism, that he was anti-semitic, or, worse, that his psychological theories helped to prepare the way for the Third Reich, then I would be forced to acknowledge that Jung bears some responsibility.<br /><br />Unlike Jung, though, in the case of the Catholic Church it is simply a matter of historical fact that the Catholic Church was (1) supportive of Nazism, (2) anti-Semitic, and (3) that the Church helped to prepare the way for the Third Reich and even the Holocaust. This is not just my own personal opinion, but something that many prominent scholars agree on.Apuleius Platonicushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761230673724504084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-30991306791242354802011-10-19T07:51:11.998-04:002011-10-19T07:51:11.998-04:00"So you won't get any argument from me on..."So you won't get any argument from me on the points you make. All that and more is true of the eveil Catholic/fascist nexus."<br /><br />Perhaps not the best way to end a discussion on 'The Cowardly Blood Sport of Nazi-Baiting'.dimwoohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14647682159670328929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-44863404501595938682011-10-18T15:06:47.770-04:002011-10-18T15:06:47.770-04:00Hi KatyDid,
It's always a pleasure when I fin...Hi KatyDid,<br /><br />It's always a pleasure when I find a comment by you!<br /><br />I guess dimwoo might have been directing his/her comment more at you than at me?<br /><br />Even though I have a preference for dumping on Protestants, there is also plenty of justification for linking the Catholics with fascism. In fact, fascism is essentially a 20th century mutation of the restorationist political movement that arose during the 19th century. These were the people who gave us the words "reactionary" and "conservative" in the first place. Basically they wanted to undo the Enlightenment (and most especially the French Revolution) and return to the good old days of theocracy.<br /><br />So you won't get any argument from me on the points you make. All that and more is true of the eveil Catholic/fascist nexus.Apuleius Platonicushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761230673724504084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-46179914560511242382011-10-18T12:35:50.428-04:002011-10-18T12:35:50.428-04:00Thank you for your comment, dimwoo.
You are absol...Thank you for your comment, dimwoo.<br /><br />You are absolutely correct in that there is plenty of blame to go around. Very few people clearly saw who and what the Nazis were, and even fewer had any idea of what to do about it. One of the few who did, in my opinion, was Churchill, who was himself very politically conservative and a racist to boot.<br /><br />My intention is not to single out Catholics, per se. Rather, I am more interested in focusing attention on Christianity in general, inclusive of Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox. They all laid the foundations for the modern scourges of anti-semitism and racism. <br /><br />And if one had to pick one particular flavor of Christianity for special mention it would be Protestantism. Protestantism was directly culpable in the slave system in the United States, and in its bastard children, Segregation and Jim Crow. Protestantism was the religion most closely aligned with Nazism. And Protestantism is also closely associated with Apartheid in South Africa.Apuleius Platonicushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11761230673724504084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-4918622064421319872011-10-18T12:24:05.535-04:002011-10-18T12:24:05.535-04:00It was catholicism's great fear of Communism t...It was catholicism's great fear of Communism that led them to embrace right-wingers such as Hitler, Franco etc. This was not an unfounded fear.dimwoohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14647682159670328929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-56923995882458313872011-10-18T12:22:06.289-04:002011-10-18T12:22:06.289-04:00Hi,
The catholic church didn't exactly cover i...Hi,<br />The catholic church didn't exactly cover itself with glory but it wasn't by any means the only organisation to make a pact with Hitler: many european countries did the same thing in the period immediately after Hitler gained power, including the UK. It was a method of forestalling any potential violence, guaranteeing trade, sovereignty etc. <br />The Pope may have condemned democracy, but back then democracy was often viewed sceptically as leading to weakened governments unable to take bold, decisive action in any direction. <br /><br />So, in short, it's unfair to highlight the catholics out of context in this way.dimwoohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14647682159670328929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7817911217098974229.post-37698406239343728762011-10-13T09:23:48.379-04:002011-10-13T09:23:48.379-04:00Nice.
I got through the first part this morning, ...Nice. <br />I got through the first part this morning, and I'll go for the second part this afternoon.<br /><br />You know, the Catholic Church really DID go out of its way at one point in time to give the impression of being fascist.<br /><br />Pope Pius IX condemned basically EVERYTHING that democracy stood for - particularly in his Syllabus of Errors - including democracy freedom of the press, freedom of religion, freedom of conscience, etc. - and in 1899 condemned "Americanism"...<br /><br />Them of course, in the inter-war period that you discuss here, Pius XI and XII signed pacts with Hitler, Mussolini, etc. <br /><br />I suppose that you can pull out facts that make ANY group look fascist, but as far as evidence goes, pre-Vatican II Catholicism makes a great argument for itself as fascist.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16323871207793126503noreply@blogger.com